06. JANUARY-DECEMBER 1986 - GETTING SIGNED

Then came 1986 which would be a pivotal year in the band's history. Their first show would be at the Troubadour on January 4, supported by the bands Feline and Airline.






As mentioned by Cue in the quote above, the band debuted My Michelle at this show [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007].

The band with the classic lineup was slowly building a following and reputation in Hollywood. Years later, Duff would talk about progressing from being an unknown band to starting to draw crowds:

Due to their wild lifestyle the band quickly developed a strained relationship with the police.



The police would also occasionally raid their rehearsal space at Gardner:





In his biography Duff would also be more detailed about these "supposed complaints from girls" from his quote above and describe an incident when the police came looking for Axl:



Incidents like this would inspire 'Out Ta Get Me', a song that was debuted on February 28, 1986:



In an interview in 1986, Axl would describe one such incident:



Based on the L.A. Weekly editor’s note in parentheses, the incident described by Axl had led to charges being filed against him (that were later dropped in court), despite the fact that the girl had identified someone else as him.

Raz Cue would also describe an event taking place at the Gardner rehearsal space in his biography, involving a “psycho chick” who was led out to the street, then returned with the cops saying that Axl had raped her, and, like in Axl’s story, ended up identifying someone else (who, according to Cue, was Dizzy Reed from the Wild). In Cue’s story, though, Axl wasn’t present when all that happened, and the girl “had wandered down the alley” looking for him; moreover, Cue didn’t mention whether the girl ended up on the street naked or not, and didn’t clarify whether the incident eventually led to a rape charge [Raz Cue biography, “The Days of Guns, and Raz’s”, 2017].

Cue would later retract and revise that story on his homepage [www.razcue.com, July 2, 2019], saying that he had mixed two different incidents: one that he had witnessed, involving the girl he had mentioned in his biography (in which Axl wasn’t present), adding further that the girl, who he would now describe as a “scruffy hippie chick”, was “tossing around gear” in the studio - similarly to Axl’s story above - until she was thrown out, again without clarifying whether naked or not; and a second one, involving a young girl called Michelle, which was a story he had heard from his brother (JoJo), who had been present:



So, according to Cue’s brother, Axl had sex with Michelle who was subsequently - similarly to the above quote from Axl - thrown out of the studio without her clothes. Cue would also repeat, as in his biography, that Dizzy was mistakenly taken away by the police instead of Axl, but imply that his arrest had to do with the second incident involving “Michelle”, which was the one that had led to a rape charge against Axl [razcue.com, July 2, 2019].

Vicky Hamilton described an event that took place at the Gardner studio in an interview in late 1988, which has similarities with Axl's story:



In 2012, Hamilton would again talk about the rape charge and connect the Michelle girl from the rape charge with the Michelle from "My Michelle":



In her 2016 biography, Vicky says she got this story from Slash, who had said that Axl had consensual sex with a girl, got angry at her, and kicked her out to which she responded by going to the cops and saying he raped her [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2016, p. 132]. The addition that Axl had sex with the girl, makes the story similar to the one Raz Cue had heard from his brother. Vicky also told the same story prior to the release of her biography:



Kim Fowley, who was in discussions with the band at the time, would later tell a story that he got a call from Izzy around this time who asked him to help out with an emergency involving three of the band mates and possibly a mother and a daughter:



This seems to corroborate Hamilton's story about a girl and a mother, it also states that Fowley was instrumental in resolving the issue through his friend Dave Libert. It is not clear from Hamilton's quote whether it was Slash who told Hamilton it had been consensual or whether it had been Axl himself, although the Daily Mail presents it as it was Axl.

If all this is to be believed, there were two separate incidents involving rape allegations against Axl (the "psycho chick”/”hippie chick” and "Michelle" from JoJo's story) It seems, however, that only the second incident had led into actual charges [razcue.com, July 2, 2019]. What makes things even more confusing, is that neither of the two incidents described by Cue on his homepage matches exactly the story told by Axl in L.A. Weekly in June 1986, although, as pointed out above, each of Cue’s descriptions contains different elements from Axl’s story. So maybe this was actually one story that has been made into two by Cue. Another possibility is that Axl had mixed two incidents into one. A third scenario, that seems more plausible, is that Axl was referring to an incident (during the first part of which he might or might not have been present) unrelated to the rape charge that was eventually filed, but the journalist in L.A. Weekly, knowing about the charge, just assumed that it was the incident leading to it (hence the editor’s note in parentheses); which would mean that there were indeed two separate incidents, but at least one or them has not been recounted accurately by Cue.

In another 1986 band interview, published just a few days after the one in L.A. Weekly, it was mentioned that two rape charges were filed (and subsequently dropped), against both Axl and Slash [Los Angeles Times, July 6, 1986].



Slash talked further about the rape charges that were filed against both Axl and him, saying that the incident that had led to the charges involved two girls:




Izzy affirmed that there was a second girl involved, and, confounding the issue further, he implied that Steven had a peripheral role in the whole story:



This ties in with Fowley's story that three band members were involved, Axl, Slash and Steven, and that it involved a daughter and a mother.

In 1989, Axl was quoted referring to the rape charge like this (likely it was an older quote reprinted in Hit Parader):



Slash would later revisit the events in his autobiography (and, interestingly, he wouldn’t make any reference to a second girl this time):





According to Vicky Hamilton, Axl hid the apartment she shared with Jennifer Perry to escape the police, and when the Gardner place was raided, the rest of the band moved in there, too [Musician, December 1988; Marc Canter, “Reckless Road”, 2008; Vicky Hamilton, Daily Mail, April 2015; "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2016]. In 2016, Hamilton would say they stayed there for six moth, but that Duff stayed with his girlfriend at the time [BBC Four, February 5, 2016].





In an article in Circus in July 1988, it was said the band had lived at Hamilton's apartment from October 1985 to March 1986 [Circus, July 31, 1988]. This places the "rape incident" to October 1985 and suggests they stayed with Hamilton until they got signed. That they stayed with Hamilton for six months is confirmed by Hamilton [BBC Four, February 5, 2016].




Izzy and Slash would also talk about hiding in Hamilton’s apartment, mentioning again that both Axl and Slash were sought by the police:







Hamilton additionally hired a lawyer to assist with the rape charges [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2016, p. 138], which, as has already been mentioned, were eventually dropped.



The lawyer hired by Hamilton was, most likely, the same one whose name was included in the “Thank You” notes on the Appetite for Destruction album: “GUNS N’ ROSES WOULD LIKE TO THANK: [...] Richard Caballero (for keeping Axl and Slash outta jail)”



Curiously enough, neither Hamilton nor Raz Cue have made any reference to the charge against Slash.

Based on these quotes it seems most likely that it was (at least) two incidents, one involving a "hippie girl" that wasn't able to recognize Axl (and may not have led to a rape charge), and one involving two girls where one was an old girlfriend of Axl or someone one of the band members was briefly involved with (and led to both Slash and Axl being charged with rape). In addition, we have the "Michelle" girl who Cue tells about and who claims she was raped by Axl, but does not mention a second girl nor that Slash was involved.

A related issue that is worth noting, is that Vicky Hamilton’s and Raz Cue’s accounts differ in regards to when exactly those events took place. According to Hamilton, it was in December 1985, before the holidays [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2016]. Cue, however, in his biography, placed the events around the time of the show at the Roxy on January 18, 1986 [Raz Cue, “The Days of Guns, and Raz’s”, 2017] and didn’t seem to retract from that timeline in his later, revised account of the events [razcue.com, July 2, 2019]. Based on the known show dates of that period, in combination with the second excerpt from Slash’s autobiography above (in which Slash mentions that the band was afraid to book shows), Raz Cue’s timeline seems more plausible. Additionally, the following dedication by Axl during the Roxy show also suggests that the band was still at Gardner then:



Thanks to @Blackstar for massively rewriting this chapter!

The band would get nowhere without being signed to a record label. But there were many bands vying for the labels' attention. The band would get help from Joseph Brooks and Henry Peck, friends of the band and legends of the Los Angeles music scene. Together they ran the famous and important record store Vinyl Fetish on 7305 Melrose Avenue as well as the clubs The Fetish Club and The Veil.



Axl would later talk about how Peck and Brooks helped the band:








Joseph Brooks would tell how he promoted the band to record labels by getting label representatives to their shows and playing Welcome To The Jungle on his radio show, and that it was he who gave a copy of the demo to Geffen Records' Tom Zutaut who would become instrumental in the band getting signed:





Axl would credit Brooks for his importance at the end of the music video for Don't Cry with the words "P.S. thanx Joseph!":



Brooks involvement would also be explained in the band's March 1992 issue of their official fan club newsletter:





As mentioned above, Brooks the handed the band's demo tape to Tom Zutaut at Geffen Records. Zutaut was an artist representative always on the lookout for exciting, new bands.






Zutaut was 26 year old in 1986 and had been hand-picked by David Geffen, the CEO of Geffen Records [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007]. Zutaut had previously brought Motley Crue and Metallica to Elektra Records [New York Times, December 8, 1991], demonstrating his keen eye for new artists.  





According to Brooks, he put Zutaut on the guest list for the band's next show at the Troubadour [likely on January 4, 1986, a show described in a previous chapter], but Zutaut refused to enter when he had to pay for two drinks minimum:

Naturally, Zutaut would highlight his instincts for good music by saying how the band name had appealed to him, and to some extent downplay Joseph Brooks role. According to Zutaut, after having heard about the band at Vinyl Fetish, and not mentioning not entering a previous show due to the two-drink minimum, he came across one of the band's posters:






In Geffen's own press release regarding release of Appetite for Destruction it is said that it was Brooks from Vinyl Fetish who got Zutaut on the guest list, and likely also told them about the show at the Roxy:



So clearly, Joseph Brooks deserves a lot of the credit for connecting Guns N' Roses with Geffen Records.



Duff would claim this was the first gig where the band sold out, although Marc Canter would claim this happened for the November 22 gig at the Troubadour the year before [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007]. This was likely due to the promotional work orchestrated by Vicky Hamilton, and, of course, the band's killer concerts that gained a growing reputation in Hollywood.




Canter would also mention this was the first show he could tell Slash had shot up heroin before the show:



The Roxy show would be mentioned in the band's third newsletter:



The show also got a review in L.A. Weekly where it was said that the show was a testimony that L.A. Guns and Guns and Roses were "the latest godheads among the drugstore glam-boy" [L.A. Weekly, January 30, 1986].





As mentioned by Cue in the quote above, Guns N' Roses had swapped timeslots with LA Guns because they wanted the A&R people they expected to come to the show to catch their performance. But this backfired when swapping timeslots with L.A. Guns meant that Zutaut again missed seeing them:



Still, he did see Axl sing with LA Guns later in the show and would approach him after the concert:





Again, it seems like Joseph Brooks was involved:



Axl would later say that Zutaut had met the band and that he liked them, but this could have been another later show since it doesn't seem Zutaut met the entire band this time:





Steven credits Vicky Hamilton with getting the band in touch with Geffen Records:



According to Rolling Stone Magazine, Ensenat and Zutaut had spent "months" trying to get in contact with the band who didn't own a phone [Rolling Stone, November 1988] and Hamilton made sure ads and flyers contained her name and telephone address, allowing media and labels to get in contact. It is likely not correct it took months. It is not known when Zutaut first heard of the band from Joseph Brooks at Vinyl Fetish nor started to get in contact with the band and when he met Axl at Roxy, but it was likely not "months".

Axl would also stress the point that Zutaut was more important than Theresa Ensenat:

At some point the band was managed by a co-worker of Duff called Black Randy. Randy also played in the LA punk band Black Randy and the Metro Squad. According to Duff's memoirs, Randy videotaped the band in their rehearsal space at Gardner's wearing children's Halloween tape. Unfortunately, this tape has not surfaced. Also unfortunately, Randy had AIDS and died soon afterwards from drugs [SUBvert Magazine, May 6, 2009; Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p 100]. According to Chris Weber, a demo tape was produced with Randy with Weber as the producer [Rock Scene, October 1989].





According to Marc Canter, the band was very briefly managed by a person called "Bridgette" who was also managing Jetboy at the time, but "she wasn't accomplishing much on their behalf and Guns N' Roses ended the relationship" [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007]. The manager of Jetboy was Brigitte Wright. Vicky Hamilton would confirm that Wright had been involved around the same time as her [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2014, p. 132], but this likely didn't last and Hamilton would be the main person assisting the band in a managerial capacity. Wright does not list "Guns N' Roses" as one of the bands she managed in her official bio, which could indicate that the interaction between her and the band was limited.

Slash would later say they were managed by "Bridget" when they did a show in San Francisco at The Stone together with Jetboy:



This show took place on October 5, 1985, which at least gives us one date for when Wright was managing the band.



After quitting as manager of Guns N' Roses, Cue suggested to Vicky Hamilton from Silver Lining Entertainment, the manager of Poison, that she should manage Guns N' Roses, but she had just scoffed at the idea [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 217-218].



Hamilton had an impressive track record in Hollywood and been involved with bands like Motley Crue, Poison and Stryper [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007]. According to Hamilton's biography, she helped manage Guns N' Roses already from when the band was first started, before the Hell Tour. Cue and Canter denies this.

Regardless of when she was involved with helping the band -- and these things are usually gradual and open for discussion -- Hamilton had met Axl and Izzy back in early 1984 when they played in Hollywood Rose:







At some point she had also met Slash, whom she became very fond of:



Hamilton would then use her connections to book shows for Hollywood Rose.

Despite Cue, Canter and Hamilton disagreeing about when she got "officially" involved with Guns N' Roses, by the end of 1985 she definitely did her best to help them out by booking shows and getting them in contact with record labels:



According to Marc Canter, Hamilton attended the band's show at the Troubadour on November 22, 1985, and "was so impressed at their performance and their great appeal to the club […] that she offered her services as their manager", and after a meeting, the band decided to hire her [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007].








One thing Hamilton did was send out a band bio to interested parties:



The band moved into Hamilton's one-bedroom apartment at Clark Street (when Axl and Slash got rape charges against them), which she shared with a girlfriend, Jennifer Perry [Steven's biography, "My Appetite for Destruction", 2010, page 100].




Hamilton would claim that Axl wrote both My Michelle and November Rain while he stayed in her apartment:



The rape allegations are discussed in a different chapter, and although there would be a girl named Michelle who would press charges against Axl, the song My Michelle was about a different girl, Michelle Young [see later chapter].

Talking about their living arrangement:



At this point, Slash would allegedly agree that Hamilton was their manager [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2014, p. 134].








In early February 1986, a week after moving in with Hamilton, she and Cue met at a show:



In 2012, Hamilton would insist she had officially been the band's manager which was likely an important distinction when it came to compensation for her services. Hamilton would sue the band for monies due in 1987 [see later chapter]:



Axl would later look back at this period and say:



Alan Santalesa, former band mate with Izzy in Shire, would talk about what Hamilton did for the band:

_______________________________________________________

As described previously, Jenny Price at Greenworld Distribution had tried to get a deal with Guns N' Roses already back in late 1985 [see previous chapter]. Although Greenworld declined, Price continued working at helping make the band break through. It seems like Price left Greenworld not soon after the botched deal with GN'R and starting working as a secretary for Kim Fowley [Metal Sludge, October 9, 2012].

Fowley was a well-known business figure with an impressive background, and allegedly also a friend of Slash [Goldmine, May 1989]. Fowley had been the manager/producer of the LA band Candy, in which future GN'R member Gilby Clarke played guitar.

In Goldmine Magazine in 1993, Fowley would say that Axl and Izzy initially reached out to him through a letter, and the article would describe Axl and Izzy as "a pair of ambitious rockers recently relocated to Hollywood from their native Indiana" [Goldmine Magazine, November 26, 1993]. Fowley claims to have turned them down due to their negative reputation:



In 2012, Fowley would elaborate and mention that Jenny Price was his secretary at the time and had urged him to work with the band (likely after Price had left Green World) but again that it was Fowley who had eventually decided not to work with the band due to their behavior:



Fowley's decline to work with happened on a Thursday and only a few days later, on Saturday, he got a call from Izzy who asked him to help out with an emergency involving three of the band mates and possibly a mother and a daughter:



The story mentioned above must be one of the abuse allegations discussed in a later chapter. Still, Fowley was not finished with the band because about a month later he claims he met Axl who again asked him to help the band:



By now Fowley was interested in working with the band and went to Vicky Hamilton's apartment to speak to them (this likely suggests the band was still hiding out at Hamilton apartment because the rape charges [see above and later chapter] had not been fully resolved yet [Metal Sludge, October 9, 2012], According to Fowley, Axl had been enthusiastic about working with Fowley when he managed to immediately get traction with two record companies "within three hours":



Hamilton would confirm that Fowley met the band while they were living in her apartment, but claim that she convinced Axl not to accept Fowley's offer despite him being inclined to accept [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2014, p. 145]. As revenge, Hamilton claim's Fowley would tell the band that Hamilton was "too pretty to be a manager" likely trying to get Axl to stop working with her:



Steven would tell he had been there when Fowley had said Hamilton was too pretty to be a manager. Steven would agree that Axl initially wanted to accept Fowley's offer and also that Axl didn't believe women could be as competent as men, a notion Fowley had tried to use as leverage:



Fowley would recall how Hamilton had reacted to him trying to make a deal with the band in her apartment:



As for the claim he had offered the band money for song rights and the claim he had tried to wrestle the band out of Hamilton's hands by claiming that she as a pretty woman couldn't help them:



In his biography, Duff would simply state that the band was reluctant to take Fowley o, due to knowing him as a shady character and being fearful of being ripped off. Duff would also say that Fowley then wanted to buy publishing rights to Welcome To The Jungle for $10,000, and later $50,000. Again, the band decided to wait [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p 103].



Despite the issue with Fowley, Slash would say that Fowley started "the big hype in New York about us. Also in Chicago and London, as well" [Concert Shots, May 1986].

After all this Fowley with have a chance encounter with Axl and Hamilton:




Hamilton would also talk about Elektra's early interest:



According to Steven's biography, Hamilton did indeed orchestrated some of the early record label interest:



After the band's sold out show at the Roxy on January 18, 1986 [see earlier chapter], A&R staff from major labels started to attend gigs. In the weeks after the January 18 gig, the record-label frenzy to sign the band peaked [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p 106].
















Around this time Hamilton received a call from Karen Burch from Music Connection magazine. They wanted an interview with the band. Hamilton thought this was a good idea to drive the bidding war between labels higher. Burch insisted that the interview should be done in Hamilton's apartment, their "true environment" [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2014, p. 144]. The interview The interview was aired in early April 1986, after the band had actually signed with Geffen.

Zutaut, who had missed seeing the band on their previous show when they played earlier than scheduled, was anxious to see them play their next show. This came on February 28, at the Troubadour. For this show the band debuted Out Ta Get Me [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007].





















The band members would recall Zutaut attending the show:





Later, in Marc Canter's book, Zutaut would claim he wasn't able to get in contact with Axl and instead sent a letter to Hamilton:



The letter was dated March 5, and from its content it is implied that Zutaut had a meeting with the band on this day and likely discussed a record deal with them:

__________________________________________________________

Every one of the five band members dabbled in various substances in the band's earliest days. As the band started to live and party together, drugs were intrinsically connected to their lifestyle, and to some it became increasingly important. Axl would later look back at the time and comment that they "believed that substance abuse was a way to God" ["Guns N' Roses: The Photographic History", Documentary, June 19, 1994] and that "drugs were a major part of the early thing" [Melody Maker, July 18, 1987].

The lyrics of their early songs reflect this wild lifestyle, with numerous references to partying, drinking and drugs. Often other musicians, strippers and drug dealers would hang out with the band, bringing with them quaaludes, Valium, coke and booze [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011].

The problems seemed to have increased after Geffen forbade them to play any live shows after they were signed in March 1986:



Marc Canter would also confirm the problems really started after the band got signed, when Izzy's heroin habits rubbed on to Steven and Slash:




Duff would later say that in this period Steven and Izzy were in a constant cycle of sobering up and returning to drugs [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p 117]. Duff would also mention he left Seattle to escape heroin, but ironically ended up in a band with Slash and Izzy:



Izzy talking about the period 1986-1987:



Although Slash would also indicate the drug problems started before they were signed in March 1986:



While the band was living in Vicky Hamilton's apartment Izzy and Slash would shoot heroin on the roof [Metal Sludge, March 2012] but Hamilton would remember Axl as being careful with alcohol:



Axl would say that the whole band had "dabbled" with heroin while Slash and Izzy were addicts around the end of 1986 [Bam, November 1987]; although in testimony in August 1993, he would say it had only been himself, Slash, Izzy and Steven [Excerpt from Axl's testimony at the trial for Steven's lawsuit; August 23, 1993]. Probably, Axl considered Duff's involvement with heroin to have been mostly pre-LA, before Duff moved from Seattle. As confirmed by a "Geffen spokesman", before Appetite for Destruction was recorded, Izzy, Slash and Axl had all suffered heroin overdoses [New York Times, December 8, 1991].

Slash would later discuss how the drug use had coincided with their song writing:




But while the drug use may have fuelled their creativity, it also caused problems with their first manager, Raz Cue:



Robert John would commend Slash for being able to play while fucked up:



When the band went into the recording studio to make their debut album, Appetite for Destruction, in late 1986, the band members slowed down on their drug use:




The band became famous in Hollywood for their drug use, and was referred to as "Lines N' Noses" in an interview in 1987, although in the same interview, their manager Alan Niven made them steer away from any drug-related questions [Sounds Magazine, 1987.04.04].

In hindsight, it is hard to separate deliberate myth building from reality [for more about how Geffen tried to "make" Guns N' Roses, see a later chapter]. In the case of Guns N' Roses it is likely to have been both: the band members were wild outcasts to whom sex, drugs and rock and roll was life and future, yet Geffen would likely at times have exploited and supported this image to shape the band into appealing to fans. As a Geffen representative would say "Guns N’ Roses? Yeah, they’ll make it. If they live…" [Sounds Magazine, 1987.04.04].

While the band was courting record company suitors, they had a show at the Fender's Ballroom on March 21, opening for legendary Johnny Thunders.







Actually, the bill did not include Cheap Trick, Izzy is mixing up shows. Johnny Thunders was headlining and Jetboy and Guns N' Roses were the opening acts. Billy Rowe from Jetboy would remember the show:



Axl and Johnny Thunders got in a fight after the show:



In Marc Canter's book Duff is more vague about what happened and concludes that he was sure Axl was "right in what he was doing":







Izzy would recount the episode between Axl and Thunders differently:




Just a couple of days later, on March 23, the band played a charity gig at the Music Machine. This show is not mentioned by Marc Canter in "Reckless Road" but known to have been planned from contemporary ads. The charity organization was El Rescate, an organization that "provides legal aid and emergency food and shelter to refugees and those who have been arrested by the Immigration and Naturalization Service" [L.A. Weekly, March 21, 1986]. The bill included the bands Jet Boy, Damn Yankees, Darius and the Magnets, among others [Los Angeles Times, March 23, 1986].






For their 1993 The Spaghetti Incident? record GN'R would cover You Can't Put Your Arms Around A Memory by Johnny Thunders. Slash would then mention he didn't play on the song because he hated Thunders and refer to episodes one of which was likely the one mentioned above:

_____________________________

Raz Cue would speculate on why the band was so creative during their first months together, writing 'Welcome to the Jungle,' 'My Michelle,' and 'Paradise City,' among others:



Cue would mention an example:



Marc Canter would also talk about the writing process and how they all were important:



While Duff would talk about Axl's instincts and how they helped shape the songs:



The first song the band wrote together was 'Welcome to the Jungle':



This would be typical for how many of the new songs would be created: as a collaborative effort by five guys who lived together.

The band would later describe the magic of Guns N' Roses song writing:













Izzy answering the question where he "found that science of the riffs you were using since the very beginning of Guns":



In 2017, Duff would be asked if Izzy had been the unsung hero of their songwriting:



And Axl would shed light on the process of writing lyrics:



Slash would also discuss Axl's lyrics:



Furthermore, Axl would also say he "all the time" would wake up at night with lyrics [Metal Edge, June 1988].

And about having to write lyrics that would fit the band's music:



Alan Santalesa, former bandmate of Izzy in Shire, would remember talking to Axl in 1984 about lyrics:



In 2012, Slash would talk more about the songwriting and lyrics:



And in 2017, Tom Zutaut would describe the role of each band member:



Duff would also mention how they had resisted having anyone make them change their songs:

___________________________________________________________

Tom Zutaut had made a good impression on the band after having seen them on the Troubadour on February 28, and despite interest from other labels, in the end the band settled on Zutaut and Geffen.

The decision to go with Geffen is explained by Duff as coming down to trusting Zutaut. Zutaut was "saying all the right things about how we should be produced" and that they would have "absolute artistic freedom at Geffen" [insert quote, likely from Duff's biography].

Explaining their decision to go with Zutaut and Geffen Records:














In late 1987, Axl still had a good relationship with Zutaut and would praise his intelligence:



An interesting footnote here is that Slash's family knew David Geffen [Rock Scene, September 1987].







In late March the band had a meeting with Zutaut.





The $75,000 advance payment is confirmed by other sources [Musician, December 1988; Duff's biography].

While Zutaut was struggling to rally the upfront payment of $75,000 to sign the agreement, the band met with competitor label Chrysalis. Chrysalis offered a bigger advance payment, about $400,000 according to Duff's biography [Duff's biography], but the band was not impressed by Chrysalis and Axl said to Susan Collins, the A&R executive from Chrysalis, that they would sign with them if she would run naked down Sunset Boulevard [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2014, p. 144].

Slash would recall the meeting with Chrysalis and in particular emphasize his surprise and dismay when they didn't know who Aerosmith's Steven Tyler was::





But Axl wouldn't let Zutaut know they had already decided on Geffen and also told him about an outrageous offer he had made to Chrysalis representative Susan Collins:





According to Hamilton, as as suggested by Axl and Slash, despite liking Susan Collins, Guns N' Roses did not like her boss, Ron Fair:



In the end, Collins refused to do the naked walk [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2014, p. 144].

Despite problems, Zutaut managed to secure the upfront cash of $75,000 in the form of a cashier's check payable at Bank of America [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007] and the band was to meet with Geffen at 18:00 on the following Friday to sign the agreement [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road". 2007].



When the band was supposed to sign the contracts, Axl was again late:



According to Hamilton, Axl was in an angry mood that they when they were about to be signed, supposedly due to not being able to find his contact lenses, and left Hamilton's apartment just when they were about to sign. As both Hamilton and Steven would tell in their biographies, Axl was later found sitting on top of the roof of Whisky A Go Go, and according to Hamilton, Axl would state that someone must have hidden his lenses in an effort to sabotage the signing. Upon questioning whom that could have been, Axl suggested it was Hamilton herself [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite for Dysfunction", page 2-3].




The stories from Zutaut and Hamilton don't entirely line up. If Slash and Steven was looking for Axl's contact lenses, and Axl himself, after 6:00pm, the entire band sans Axl couldn't have been present at the meeting on 6:00pm. Maybe Slash and Steven wasn't there from the start of the meeting, but showed up before Axl. It is still doesn't explain why it would take a lot of time from Axl and his lenses was found until he showed up at Geffen.



Some sources claim the band was signed on March 26 [Duff's biography; Goldmine Magazine, May 1989], but this date was a Wednesday and that doesn't align with Zutaut's account that the band got signed on a Friday. It could be that the meeting where the band said they were going to sign if they would be paid the $75,000, was on Wednesday March 26, if so, the signing actually happened on March 28. This does not fit with Marc Canter's book though, where he makes a point out of the band having lots of new equipment for their two shows on March 28, equipment they had bough with the advance money [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007]. According to Steven, the band was signed on March 25 [Steven Adler's biography, page 104]. Most likely, Zutaut remembers it wrong, and that the signing happened on a different weekday, either Tuesday (March 25) or Wedneday (March 26), according to Steven or Duff, respectively.





Robert John would later claim the band got signed at Hamburger Hamlet ["Guns N' Roses: The Photographic History" Documentary, June 19, 1994], but this was where they went to celebrate after the signing:




Later in the night, Kim Fowley met Axl at the Rainbow:



In 2013, Fowley would tell another anecdote about Axl from this period:



The agreement that was signed this night was the so-called "memo deal", and later (August 1986?), they signed a 62 page re-draft that released the rest of the advance money [L.A. Rocks, August 1986].

Slash would say they did the negotiations themselves:



Axl would add that they did the initial deal (likely the memo deal) but then used legal counsel for the final deal:



According to Goldmine Magazine, the agreement was a seven-record deal [Goldmine Magazine, May 1989]; according to Rock Scene who interviewed Axl, it was a six-record deal with "two albums firm" [Rock Scene, September 1987]. Later, Katherine Turman, the journalist writing for Rock Scene, would include the entire quote from Axl in the book Louder Than Hell:



The total contract worth was $350,000 according to the New York Times in 1991 [New York Times, December 8, 1991] or $2,500,000 according to the San Francisco Chronicle in 1987 [San Francisco Chronicle, May 30, 1987].

Half of the advance ($75,000) was immediately divided up between the members ($15,000 each) and half of that ($7,500) was handed out to each member while the rest was saved for later [Duff's biography].




Axl couldn't deposit the money in the band since he hasn't formally changed his name to "Axl Rose" yet, and decided to tuck it into his boots [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007].

Kim Fowley would reminisce:










The recording deal would seem to have been in effect until September 1, 1992, when a new recording deal was entered into between Axl, Duff and Slash and Geffen Records (at the same time, a partnership agreement between Axl, Slash and Duff was made). See later section for more information on this.

In 2016, Axl would be asked what advice he would have given his younger self and mention forming their own label to release their music:



When the interviewer argued that they still were very successful at Geffen and made a lot of money, Axl responded:



The interviewer suggested to be "more in control", to which Axl replied:

The signing with Geffen was celebrated at the two following shows on March 28, 1986, at the Roxy (and early and a late show the same day). These two shows would be advertised in the band's fourth newsletter:







Later, Axl, Duff and Slash would mention that their original plan had been to choose the record company immediately after this show, based on who offered the best terms:





Explaining why they didn't wait with signing until after the show:




Duff talking about the shows:



During both shows Axl would dedicate "My Michelle" to "Tommy Zutaut," the "man of the hour" [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007]. Axl would also dedicate "Mama Kin" to Hamilton, saying, "This song I wanna dedicate to Vicky Hamilton, for putting up with me being a really weird fuck. I am just a pain in the ass" [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007].




For at least one of these shows, Stevens's grandmother was there:

_____________________________________________________


What set them apart from most of the other contemporary bands was a feeling of realness and genuineness in their music.






The extent to which Geffen directed the creation of the band's "bad boy" image, would be discussed in the media. The band would claim the image came naturally to them:






And Slash and Duff would deny the label having any finger in helping to establish the "bad boy" image:




Yet later, Duff would admit that the label did whatever they could to establish the rumour:



As described in a later chapter, Alan Niven would also claim to plant outrageous rumours about Axl to feed the press and the image building [see later chapter].



The band was probably aware of the importance of branding, at least later on in their career, and would occasionally be overly outrageous and brazen in interviews, embracing the image of reckless bad boys:




Although they would also distance themselves from the image yet admit to take advantage of it:



Slash would echo this sentiment in 1989, admitting to seeing the positive effect of being the bad boys of rock 'n' roll:



And the positive effect of simply having a reputation:



The band would further suggest the label capitalized on the image:



And also that they encouraged profanity in the band's lyrics:



As RIP Magazine would state it: "Watch out for Guns N’ Roses. They are your new role models. Boys want to be like them, girls want them and everybody’s going to hear from them." [RIP Magazine, May 1987].



It is plausible that the band's craziness quickly became too much for the label:

On April 5 they played at the re-opened Whisky A Go Go and the poster said, "When was the last time you saw a real rock n' roll band at the Whisky A Go Go? This could be your last chance".





This show would also be advertised in the band's fourth newsletter:



For this show, Axl's parents flew in from Indiana to see the band [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007].






Again would Axl thank Zutaut from stage [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007]. Zutaut was there with Bryn Bridenthal, who would later become the band's early publicist:



Bridenthal would later recount her working for Guns N' Roses before she was even paid by Geffen:



The shows were getting crazy and this anecdote from Axl is from the day of the April 5 gig:

One fixed feature of Slash would became his famous top hat:








Taime Downe, who worked at Retail Slut, would claim he had given the hat to Slash and that he had claimed to have stolen it just to appear tough:



In 2019, Slash would again claim he stole the hat:






In Marc Canter's book Slash would say he wore the top hat for the first time at the August 22, 1986, show at the Whisky:



But there is photographic evidence suggesting Slash started using it earlier than August 1986. Later, in 2018, he would state that it was for the band's first show at the Whisky after it reopened in 1986, that he debuted the top hat:



This show took place on April 5, 1986, which puts the premiere of the top hat down to this date. It is confirmed from images and videos from the April 5, 1986, show that Slash had the top hat by that date.

Adriana Smith, a friend of the band, would in 2016 recount a story of Slash losing his hat at a party:



In 2007 and 2018, Slash would discuss how he manages to fix the top hat to his head:




And on whether he had ever considered wearing a beanie instead:



In 2018 he would say he owned 9-10 top hats [Reddit AMA, September 20, 2018].

With new-found wealth coming from the $75,000 advance payment the band received from Geffen, the band could afford a more luxurious life-style, or at least not live in abject poverty like homeless people. They could also afford new tattoos, better equipment, and more drugs and booze. According to Raz, the band also rented a "luxury apartment" on the corner of La Cienega and Fountain [Raz' biography, page 238]. Zutaut would claim the apartment was on Fountain and Crescent Heights. This meant that the band moved out of Vicky Hamilton's apartment for good.



Talking about the money they received:

Despite all the work Vicky Hamilton did for the band, she did not have a written contract with them. After a meeting with Peter Paterno, a music attorney she knew and which Howie Hubberman brought to her [Metal Sludge, May 21, 2015], she was handed a contract to give to the band. She told the band that they either had to negotiate and sign the agreement, or move out of her apartment. When this didn't produce results, she took them all to Paterno's office to negotiate the deal. After the meeting Paterno told Hamilton that he would handle the legalities of working out a record deal for the band and that she should get another lawyer to represent her on the management agreement [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2014, p. 136-137]. Hamilton would claim Paterno "stole " the band away from her:  


In 2015, Howie Hubberman would be asked about whether Paterno stole GN'R away from Hamilton:



Hamilton would claim to have borrowed $25,000 to help finance the band [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2014, p. 147].

in February/March 1986, Hamilton had a talk with Axl:



According to Hamilton, she then set up a meeting with McGhee and Thaler, but the band was strung out and tired after partying the night before, even to the extent of falling asleep during the meeting, and McGhee and Thaler declined to co-manage them [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2014, p. 149].

So Hamilton was negotiating a management deal with the band while they were negotiating a record deal with Geffen Records.

Tom Zutaut from Geffen Records eventually contacted Hamilton and said he would give her a scout job at Geffen if she would help him get the band signed to them. Zutaut would then get the band a big-time manager [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", 2014, p. 149-150]. This ended Hamilton's attempts at becoming the band's future manager. Exactly when this happened is not entirely clear, but it is known the band still lived in Hamilton's apartment by April 5, 1986, suggesting she was still managing them then [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007].



The band would later insist they didn't have a manager in this part of 1986, and that they negotiated the deal with Geffen Records themselves [RIP Magazine, May 1987].



This was made abundantly clear in Axl's response to the Music Connection interview from April 1986, which is believed to have been published in August 1986:



It is true they didn't have an official manager, no management contract was signed, but it is undeniable that Hamilton helped them out a lot, which is also emphasized by Axl in the quote above. In Steven's biography he would go a bit further and state that Hamilton was indeed managing the band at the time and that she had a lawyer look over the paperwork [Steven's biography, "My Appetite for Destruction", 2010, page 105], and Marc Canter would confirm [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007]. It is interesting how Duff barely mentions Hamilton's name in his biography, while Steven describes her as instrumental in very important events in the band's history. This could be due to different perspectives on her importance, editorial choices, or simply disagreement over her importance.

The reason why the band never signed a management agreement with Hamilton could be that Raz Cue had warned them against having a manager at the time when negotiating with their label:



In April Hamilton was out of the picture as per her agreement with Zutaut, something that was unknown to Steven:



In 2002, Hamilton would claim she had been the band's manager (and also managed Poison and Faster Pussycat) and when asked why this wasn't recognized on any CDs, respond:



In 2006, Axl, in his counter-lawsuit against Slash and Duff, would refer to Hamilton as an "interim manager" and claim that Slash had refused to fire her because he was not finished "using her":



In 2012, Hamilton would revisit the story of how she ended professional relations with the band:





In April, 1987, it is hinted that the band was in "legal wrangles with former managers" [Sounds Magazine, 1987.04.04], and in May 1987 it is said that the band had gone through "ump­teen different managers" [RIP Magazine, May 1987]. In July it was reported that Hamilton had sued the band on March 22, 1987, for $1 million [Circus, July 31, 1988]. By August 1988, it is reported that Hamilton had sued the band [Screamer Magazine, August 1988] for only $10,000 [Musician, December 1988], so it is reasonable to think this explains some of the "legal wrangles" mentioned in April 1987. By November 1988, it was reported that the suit was settled out of court [Rolling Stone, November 1988]. In 1989, Axl would also mention that they've had to pay some "out-of-court settlements" [RIP, April 1989], the settlement with Hamilton is likely one of them.

In December 1988, Musician Magazine published an interview with Hamilton where she said the following:



In 2012 and in her biography she would discuss that interview in Musician Magazine and Axl's reaction to it claiming he had given her a death threat:




In 2013, Marc Canter would say that Hamilton had said bad things about Axl and possibly refer to the interview in Musician Magazine and that she had also starting rumors that Axl had stolen dance moves from Richard Black from Shark Attack [see earlier chapter]:



It is possible, or likely, that Axl's anger at Hamilton stemmed not only from what she said in Musician Magazine, but also from the fact that she had sued the band. In her biography Hamilton implies to have sued the band in early 1986, when the three-year statue of limitation was about to close, but as demonstrated by the above quotes, this can't be true. She also states that she sued them for $1,000,000 but settled and received $35,000.

In 2012, Hamilton would talk about the decision to sue to repay Howie Hubberman after borrowing money from him when she was taking care of the band:



Canter would back up Hamilton's story:



Axl would comment on the decision to settle out of court:



In 2002, Hamilton would be asked about the lawsuit and reply:



Slash would later look back at this period and mention "creeps" who wanted to manage the band but that they managed "to get through that and through a couple of band management situations" [Scene Magazine, April 1988]. It is probably not likely he refers to Hamilton here, because he seems to have sustained a good relationship with her, but possibly more likely Kim Fowler [see earlier chapter].

Axl would comment on Hamilton again in April 1989, likely after having read her's comments in Musician from December 1988:



Izzy would also look back at the period with Hamilton:



In 2008, Del James would comment on Hamilton:



Howie Hubberman would also discuss the lawsuit:



In 2010, Steven would say it had been Niven's decision to not continue working with Hamilton, and that the rest of the band, sans Steven, didn't think that she as a woman could do a good job:




That Niven influenced the band in regards to Hamilton is highly unlikely, everything points to him meeting the band first in May 1986 while Hamilton seems to have been out of the picture soon after Geffen signed the band in late March 1986.

In 2012, Hamilton would talk about her relationship with Axl:





On February 15, 2016, Hamilton released her book, Appetite for Dysfunction: A Cautionary Tale.









About turning the book into a TV series:



And about who could play here:



And an update on the TV series plan:

One of the first things Zutaut did after the band was signed to Geffen Records was move them into an apartment with all-expenses-paid. The idea was to get them away from the crazy lives they were living, take care of the expenses, and stimulate the band into writing more songs to finish the material they needed for their debut record:




Despite this, Zutaut had been positively surprised to discover that Duff was also a song-writer:



Still, Zutaut didn't think they had enough good songs at the time, yet the band would pressure Geffen to record an album soon after being signed [New York Times, December 8, 1991].





Izzy would later confirm that the label had considered dropping them:



In another interview Izzy would say the label had almost dropped them about a years after signing [Spin, May 1988].

The nervousness which Izzy referred to probably - at least partly - came from the band's hard partying with Izzy briefly having to go to jail because of his heroin use, as would be described by Paul Black, the singer in LA Guns at the time:



In 2006, Izzy would look back at this period:



Zutaut's insistence that they still needed to work on writing new songs made the band frustrated leading to fights between the band and Zutaut [New York Times, December 8, 1991]. The band would also use their manager at the time, Arnold Stiefel, to try to overrule Zutaut's decision by going directly to Rosenblatt who was a close friend of Stiefel which caused further friction between the band and Zutaut [New York Times, December 8, 1991]. Rosenblatt, on the other, trusted Zutaut's strategy [New York Times, December 8, 1991].





Slash would conform that the band was frustrated:



As time progressed with no record, Geffen president, Ed Rosenblatt, was growing increasingly impatient:



Yet, when asking Zutaut when the band would have a record out, Zutaut could only reply:



In 2013, Alan Niven would talk about why the label was considering dropping the band:



Zutaut was so afraid he would lose his job over Guns N' Roses that he convinced Niven to become the band's manager in an effort to exert some control and structure on the unruly band [see later chapter].

In April/May 1986, Zutaut decided that the band should stop playing shows to allow the mystery of the band to keep building:






"In and out of trouble", as Slash states it in the quote above, would also refer to Izzy who was jailed because of his drug use around this time [see earlier chapter].

Despite Geffen's playing ban, the band did an acoustic show on May 1 at the Central, playing Move to the City, Don't Cry and Jumpin' Jack Flash. According to Marc Canter, they had been asked to do this show "at the last minute" [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007].



In 2016, Axl would look back at this and say that Geffen's decision to not let them play almost broke the band and could have resulted in them leaving the label:

In an interview with Musician in December 1988, Izzy would describe how Axl and he would be doing speed "like there was no tomorrow" back in the early 80s when they were in Hollywood Rose together [Musician, December 1988].

Izzy was also the first in the band to become a heroin junkie. He started smoking heroin after having been introduced to it by a roommate in about 1984 [Musician, November 1992]:



Chris Weber, Izzy's co-guitarist in Hollywood Rose in 1983, had to go to rehab in 1984 and moved to New York City not long after [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", page 127]. Yet despite having had to go to rehab, Weber would in an interview in 1989 deny that they had been using hard drugs back when they were playing together, but "just a little bit of pot smoking" [Rock Scene, October 1989].



But within short time, in 1984 and 1985, Izzy developed a heroin addiction. Vicky Hamilton would confirm Izzy was addicted to heroin back in 1984 [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite For Dysfunction", page 127] and Marc Canter would say Izzy was a junkie when he first met him around the same time:




Tracii would mention Izzy's interest in heroin:



Additionally, Duff, who met Izzy in late 1984, knew Izzy was "pretty much strung out all the time" before Guns N' Roses, and he would later come to know that Izzy sold heroin out the back window of his apartment [Classic Rock, May 2005; Duff's Biography]. This apartment was likely Desi Craft's at Orchid, Izzy's girlfriend at the time. Craft would also be supplying heroin to the band [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007] and she and Izzy would sell drugs to support the band [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007]. Izzy would likely allude to his drug dealing past when asked what his former job had been and reply with "illegal" [Superstar Facts & Pix, No 16, 1988]. Steven Tyler and Joe Perry would later claim they bought drugs from Izzy [Classic Rock, August 2018].

Izzy, though, would later deny ever having sold drugs, although one can hardly find it surprising he would deny any such allegations especially after had a few run-ins with the law because of his problems with addiction in 1989:



Although this is somewhat contradicted by a quote from Izzy from April 1987 when he talk about how the band got by before them became popular:



In June 1985, Izzy experienced his first heroin withdrawal as the band did the Hell Tour [Mojo, June 2001; and see earlier chapter].

Despite his addiction, Izzy was able to function and only took enough to stave off withdrawal. Duff accepted that Izzy would "do whatever it took, heroin habit or not".



Izzy would later discuss an early drug incident:



At some point Izzy managed to clean up after having been "busted" and "cheated by a lawyer" [Musician, November 1992]. Axl would likely refer to this incident at court in August 1993, when he mentioned that Izzy had been arrested for his heroin use at one time, and that he believed it had happened before the band started touring in 1987 [Excerpt from Axl's testimony at the trial for Steven's lawsuit; August 23, 1993]. Paul Black, the singer of LA Guns would likely refer to this episode which happened in 1986:



Axl would later likely refer to Izzy cleaning up in the quote below and indicate that Izzy had left Los Angeles to accomplish it, quite possibly back home to Indiana:



By the time the band was signed to Geffen in March 1986, Izzy was using again [Musician, November 1992].

In an interview with Musician in November 1992 Izzy would say that during the recording of Appetite for Destruction, in late 1986, he stopped using again, and only drank alcohol [Musician, November 1992]. Although in an interview the next month he would specify that he still used cocaine (="krell"):



In 2012, Marc Canter would talk about Izzy being a heroin addict in the band's early days and that it rubbed on off Steven and Slash around the time the band got signed:

The band wanted to play, so to get around Geffen's playing ban they started doing shows under the name 'Fargin Bastydges'. The setlist and everything else was just as with a normal Guns N' Roses show.

_________________________________________________________________________


Paul Stanley from Kiss was considered as a possible the producer of the band's debut record [L.A. Weekly, May 31, 1986], and Zutaut set up a meeting between the band and Stanley [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007]. The meeting took place before the band's show at Raji's on May 13, 1986.

Stanley would describe the first meeting:



The band would also describe the meeting:









According to Duff, Stanley was dismissed when he wanted to add double kick drums to Steven's kit [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p 118]. Other band members were altogether not impressed with Stanley:






Despite the band claiming that they dismissed Stanley already at their first meeting, Stanley would go and see the show at the Raji's:







Slash and Steven recollects:






Stanley would also attend the band's next show, at Gazzarri's on May 31.



Paul Stanley's recollection differs:



Holly Knight would comment on the story:



Stanley would also write that despite having said negative things about, Slash still called Stanley to try to get free guitars:



In 2014, Slash would comment on this:



Looking back at Stanley and Guns N' Roses:



In 2013, Axl would say that Slash had led Stanley on just so Steven could meet his hero:

The first of "Fargin Bastydges" shows took place at Raji's on May 13.






According to Marc Canter, during the show a girl in the audience would be spraying beer in Axl's face causing him to be repeatedly shocked by the electrical equipment, and near the end of the first song she threw a bottle at him, resulting in Axl pushing her away with his microphone stand [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007].

Axl would be a bit more blunt about what he did, saying he hit her with his microphone stand:



The boyfriend Axl talks about was Bob Forrest, the lead singer from Thelonius Monster.




After the show, Forrest would seek out Axl:






Axl would later recount the episode:



Canter would explain that although they had fought this didn't cause a conflict between the bands:



Circle Jerks singer Keith Morris, who was friend of Bob Forrest, witnessed the fight:

______________________________________________
While the band was trying to write new songs to fill out their LP, and planning an EP to be released before, they still needed to decide on the producer. The band had clear ideas about what they wanted in regards to producers. According to Vicky Hamilton, at the day of signing they had handed a list of possible producers to Zutaut [Vicky Hamilton, "Appetite for Dysfunction", page 7].

But finding the right producer was difficult. As Duff said, "Everybody wanted to take the edge off our music or to transform it into something they already understood". After the signing with Geffen, Zutaut and Alan Niven shared Duff's sentiment:





Kiss' Paul Stanley and his disastrously bad impression on the band has been discussed in an earlier chapter.





The original idea had been to travel to Britain to record their debut record [Los Angeles Times and L.A. Weekly, June 1986; Sound Connection, July 1986] with Bill Price (who had previously worked with the likes of Sex Pistols and The Pretenders) as the producer [L.A. Rocks, August 1986], but that didn't work out, so the band continued to look for a producer in the US.

Price would later discuss why he didn't end up as their producer:



This wouldn't be the end to Price' involvement with the band, though, he would later mix the Use Your Illusion records.





According to Nikki Sixx he had been asked by Zutaut to produce the album but according to him his drug abuse got in the way:




Duff, on the other hand, would claim they never seriously considered having Sixx produce their album and it is unlikely they wanted such a relatively inexperienced person to handle this responsibility:



And Zutaut would later claim Sixx didn't like the band:





Tom Werman, Mötley Crüe's producer, armed with a "case of light beer" [Juke Magazine, July 1989] "came down to rehearsal, covered his ears and left," according to Duff [Rolling Stone, November 1988].

Wernan would later deny this:





In 2017, Tom Zutaut would say they only considered five guys to produce the album, with Max Normal being one of them.





Slash wanted Jack Douglas [Reality Check TV, 2000] but would both claim it fell through in a band vote and that Geffen said no due to Douglas' addictions:








Mutt Lange, the producer behind AC/DC's Back in Black was another possibility, but he demanded $400,000 just to walk into the room (one million according to Axl in December 1987 [Interview with Steve Harris, December 1987]) plus a share of future earnings from the record. It was too expensive for the band. Could it be Lange that Axl was referring to in June, 1986, when he said the following: "We've been very busy with a lot of new pressures we've never experienced before. We've got to go have a meeting with some guy that's a millionaire. I don't have a cent in my pocket and I have to act like I'm more in charge than he is. That's really strange."

In 2017, Zutaut would claim they had never seriously considered Lange:





In this period, Axl also wanted Thomas Ray Barker as the producer [Interview with Steve Harris, December 1987]. It is not clear why this did not happen. Thomas Ray Barker would later be involved in the making of Chinese Democracy [see later chapter].



It was also reported that the band met with Rick Rubin, probably in early 1987, allegedly because he wanted the band to make a song for a movie [Endless Party Magazine, August 1987]. Rick Rubin would also later be rumoured to be considered as the producer for Chinese Democracy [see later chapter].



The band and label eventually agreed on Nazareth's Manny Charlton. Charlton was flown in from Scotland and worked with the band resulting in 27 tracks, but in the end it wasn't exactly what the band was after [see previous chapter for more information].




By December 1986, the band was still discussing with Geffen on who would be the producer of their album, trying to find someone who would be able to do the band and their songs justice. It was reported in November 1988 that around this time (?) the band disbanded for a while, but came back together again [Rolling Stone, November 1988]